From Studying the Bible
to Studying the Everyday Life
(Hu Fang In Conversation With Pak Sheung Chuen)

Part One

Hu Fang: I remember you once showed me two of your early works which had a significant impact on your creative journey, Shoulders and Full Moon, one of which is a comic drawing, which I found intriguing. In fact, comics is a medium that allows intense personal expression. In that particular piece, for instance, there are elements of black humour and violence, as well as observations about the conflict between reality and the imaginary world.

Pak Sheung Chuen: Yes, it was created during the time of my college entrance examinations. They are very demanding and it was tense for me then.

Hu Fang: Right from the beginning of your expression, you already engaged in a critique and exploration of reality. Could you talk a bit about your creative state at that time?

Pak Sheung Chuen:Drawing comics has always been a natural thing for me to do, because I always feel inadequate when it comes to verbal communication. During my elementary school years, I was really afraid of talking to people, and yet there was a lot within me that I wanted to express. Drawing comics, perhaps, was the best channel for me because it was the easiest way for me to learn. If there wa­s anything I wanted to express, I'd first write it down; and if words could not fully express my thoughts, I would resort to drawing. If I still couldn't express myself fully, I would turn to words again. This process allowed me to freely express things that I wanted to say. When feelings turned into a visual form, I could then see myself clearly through it, and in turn "I" became "the other" (or "an observer") through which I came to examine, help, and comfort myself. Perhaps that is how one lives through the adolescent years being extraordinarily sensitive towards everything, particularly towards relationships with people. As a youth, the world that I had imagined was a very beautiful one, where people were honest and sincere with each other. But throughout the process of growing up, especially since I entered adulthood, I have realized that the world does not operate this way. Oftentimes people whom you hold dearest are the ones who hurt you most.

Hu Fang: In hindsight, would you say you were actually wounded, or it was more about you feeling wounded?

Pak Sheung Chuen: I think it was more about me feeling wounded, because the world that I had initially imagined was too ideal. Yet, in reality, I was under the pressure of college entrance examinations, so how can one find beauty if you can hardly breathe at all? Why did I draw with this expression of violence? Because this violence is a direct reflection of my inner state. 

Hu Fang: This makes me think of Yang Dechang's (Edward Yang) A Bright Summer Day(牯岭街少年杀人案件).

Pak Sheung Chuen: If you view an individual life within an historical context, one can only live passively . . . so what follows is that sometimes you may have an urge to punch someone, have thoughts of suicide. Internally you always feel that you're hinged by this unknown tension.

Hu Fang:I think people who grow through their adolescence in China can relate to your experience. Although my parents and teachers were more open, comparatively speaking, than earlier generations, in general we did feel that they wanted us to live our lives in a certain way. And yet, we couldn't conceive a way out on our own. There was a kind of boredom that affected us on every level. When your body and mind can't find an outlet to develop, it can result in something very extreme . . . .

Pak Sheung Chuen:Sometimes to dissipate the boredom, the only way is to let your body lay languidly on the floor and let time pass.

Hu Fang: I remember at that time my way out was to write poetry. Poetry and comics are similar in the sense that they allow one to directly express oneself. Unlike those high school essays that required a central premise, which can sometimes turn into a form of propaganda, poetry offers one more freedom to experience the world without bounds. These were our ways to resist restrictions. Although our parents might not see the point of it, or teachers might think that you were wasting your time, from what I recall, my friends and I often got together to exchange ideas on writing poetry. It was the only thing that we could derive pleasure from in the midst of the crushing amount of studying.

Pak Sheung Chuen:My situation might involve an additional dilemma because of my Christian upbringing. On the one hand, there were things you didn't want to do, or even if you were incapable of doing what you were "supposed to do," you felt an obligation as it was part of your responsibility.

Hu Fang: When did you decide to study in a school with a religious affiliation?

Pak Sheung Chuen: In Hong Kong, better schools are affiliated with the Church. I think I am quite well suited for such a system. I started going to church in Form 2 ( Note from editor: The second year in Secondary School or Middle School in Hong Kong), and I have never stopped ever since. As a member of this community, one hopes to behave according to the school system, to the social system. Nonetheless, I still had a feeling of resistance that made me feel schizophrenic.

Hu Fang: At that time, did you feel that you had a group of friends who could gather together to share these experiences, or were you were struggling all on your own?

Pak Sheung Chuen: I tended to spend more time on my own. Being with a crowd made me feel uneasy. Spending more time alone calmed my mind.

Hu Fang: That was when you started to draw comics?

Pak Sheung Chuen: It was about this time, as I felt there was no other outlet in which I could express myself.

Part Two

Hu Fang:What was the situation like after you went to university?

Pak Sheung Chuen:During my university years, I studied different art disciplines, and realized that an idea can be expressed through different mediums. Comics allow one to very quickly and directly express something, yet it's inadequate if you want to explore some subject matter that is more in-depth. At that time, our instructor introduced us to the Western painter Giorgio Morandi, an artist who focused exclusively on drawing a few old bottles. The disquietude that his works provoked for me was almost immediate. I was stunned simply by looking at the catalogue. So I began to use different media and did many oil paintings, charcoal sketches, and etchings. When I stood in front of my own work, my eyes would immediately enter into my interior world. But then I wanted to go even deeper.

Hu Fang: Looking at your paintings and sculptures at that time, I can sense that painting seems to allow certain emotions to surface, to become visible. It is a gradual process of crystallization. Once you reach a certain level of equilibrium, your work is done.

Pak Sheung Chuen:Yes, when I see my work accurately portray my internal state, I feel relieved, and I'll stop there.

Hu Fang: Did you consciously skip the process of studying technique when you engaged in a new medium?

Pak Sheung Chuen: I did at that time, even though I wasn't fully aware what technique a certain medium might involve. I only knew that there was something in me that needed to be expressed and I was propelled to do it. Yet if I followed the schedule of our class syllabus, which extended over a period of time, I feared that my feelings might disappear. So every time when I was exposed to a new medium, I would experiment with it myself, and if it allowed me to fully express certain ideas, I would concentrate on carrying the work to completion. So I didn't have enough time to learn the so-called techniques.

Hu Fang:At university, did you start to examine ideas that were imparted to you by your church? Many artists and creative individuals seem to share this same process of questioning, often through the conflict between art and religion, and they chart out a new journey for themselves. This makes me think of a very controversial work by James Joyce: A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. The novel portrays a very similar internal journey. I want to understand what your experience has been like?

Pak Sheung Chuen: At the beginning of my own creative journey, I wanted to find a way to bring out those emotions that perplexed me; however, the deeper one searches, the more one sees the evil and dark parts of oneself. I was frightened at that time, and didn't know how to confront them. In my everyday life, I try to live honestly; but in life there are many circumstances that make you become dishonest. Yet when you're in a creative state, you only need to confront one person, which is yourself. So my bottom line is that I need to honestly confront myself. Art allows me to become acquainted with who I am, rather than expressing my view on religion. But I do believe that God will look after those who are honest with themselves.

Hu Fang:So religion and art are a means for self-exploration.

Pak Sheung Chuen:Yes.

Hu Fang:I find this intriguing. The whole movement of modernism is based on the important premise that God is dead, so who can fill this void? Obviously, it is beyond the power of humans to do so. That's why the genesis of modernism started largely with Cézanne. He steadily built a self-sustaining order through his paintings. It was an innovative way to think that art can exist solely on its own, which is to say when it doesn't attempt to reflect God, or reality, the sole subject of a painting is the self. In Joyce's A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, there's a scene that depicts the young protagonist seeing a flower blossom. In that moment, he feels that he and the world become one, and that all boundaries dissolve. This moment of unison and elevation is the convergence of religious and aesthetic experiences -- he no longer wants to distinguish whether it is God or art itself that brings him this feeling of transcendence. Even though he still feels fragile and vulnerable as an individual, he feels, at the same time, that the world belongs to him. For me, this can be interpreted metaphorically as an answer to the question of how one can exist in the world if one is in conflict with reality. This type of rhetorical question can never be resolved through rational reasoning, nor can it really be answered. So the aesthetic experience can provide an alternative approach. Your creative journey reminds me of this type of intellectual context embodied in Western modernism.

Pak Sheung Chuen: I may not be able to remain objective when I come to view my own life. Growing up, I felt that my life was shielded and embraced by religion. There are still remnants of this feeling in me, and I'm quite attached to it, and will look for it every time when I am emotionally unstable. 

Hu Fang:Many of your works seem to discuss the contention between the ideal world and reality. I remember you once mentioned the difference between you and Cao Fei. You said that you and Cao Fei were looking for an ideal world that didn't seem to exist: while Cao establishes this virtual ideal homeland where people can temporarily escape from the cruel reality, you try to merge these two worlds together through the discovery and affirmation of the everyday life, so that you can be wakened to a world that no longer appears to be in a mist. That's why your work only portrays things that happen in this world, or how this world becomes your homeland rather than other. And your sense of time focuses primarily on the present.

Pak Sheung Chuen:Yes, what I can truly perceive is only the present, and I believe it is possible to discover a utopia in this real world.

Hu Fang:In a broad sense, there's a kind of religious experience and world view that can come into a synthesis within the life of an individual. For example, as shown in your work, the significance of tending to the everyday experience and seeing it as an opportunity for self-transformation is also stressed in the philosophical tradition of Zen Buddhism. What's most fascinating is that this approach to life reveals possibilities within art because artistic creation is about finding transcendence in everyday moments, like treating every living space as your work studio.

Pak Sheung Chuen:Self-understanding is hard to achieve, and it's hard to fathom why I act in a certain way. I don't consciously associate all my works done in the past with the ones I'm working on now. I just feel that when I confront my life and its changes, I need to be able to handle the imbalance. And I try to alter the situation in my own way. So throughout this process, there's nothing I deliberately want to do other than resolve my own issues.

Hu Fang: Many of your works seem to inspire rather than make demands on others about what they should do. This is very interesting.

Pak Sheung Chuen: I remember one thing, it was a very important moment. I started questioning religion during the second year of university. The dissipation of my relationship with the Church brought forth my doubt towards people, and thus I started to question God, faith, and finally, myself. As a Christian, life is more at ease if one can integrate with the whole system of faith, because then your sense of existence will become intense in every moment. Faith is like a platform you can stand on, but when you question it, this platform will be taken away instantly, and you fall into this dark hole of time, and remain afloat there. You don't know whether you are ascending or descending. The most terrifying thing is that you don't know why you exist here. So you need to find a way to rediscover your own existence. That's why my work always stresses the awareness of "I'm here at this moment." While the future remains uncertain, the most genuine thing you can perceive is the present. How do you perceive the present? Through the process of self-discovery. The act of discovering is like pressing a knife into the stream of time; as you return to look at the line that you entrenched, it holds your memory there and becomes your point of reference in the future. Or, if I drink a glass of water and realize that the temperature inside my mouth is the same with the temperature inside the glass, then I know I and the glass are coexisting. This also helps to explain why I create art, because the act of "discovering the moment" is something that is much needed in my life.

Hu Fang: My own experience is that life can only begin when one is aware that he or she is fully present in the moment. Oftentimes, life can only unfold through a certain moment of realization that "this relationship is genuine" or that "this moment is significant." An individual's relationship with the world cannot be conceived through studying major philosophical propositions.

Pak Sheung Chuen: The concept of rebirth is important in Christianity. As one becomes baptized, one is said to be reborn. In my situation, art allows me to attain my second rebirth.

Hu Fang: Buddhism has a saying of "becoming a buddha in an instant"; I think what it means is that whenever you attain a spiritual realization, that moment brings a new beginning, not a revolution, but an opportunity to regenerate your life. But this opportunity cannot be given to one by others. You need to return to your creative state and use your own way to achieve these moments of rebirth.

Pak Sheung Chuen: Being creative is important to me, because it gives me a sense of living. Creativity can pull me out of my confusion because when I create I can see vividly where I'm at, whether I'm repeating myself or being born again through my work. If I repeat myself in my work, it cannot generate enough power to sustain my growth.

Hu Fang:People can sense this if they have followed your work or creative track for a period of time.

Pak Sheung Chuen:Which is to say, there's no essential difference between my earlier comics and my current works because I have adopted the same approach all along.

Part Three

Hu Fang: Your 2009 exhibition, All Day(s) All Night(s), at Vitamin Creative Space in Guangzhou marks the first time that you shift your focus from doing your art on everyday life context  to incorporating it with an physical exhibition venue . What are your thoughts on this?

Pak Sheung Chuen:In the past when I had my work published in the press, it was like directly revealing my thoughts to the readers or having an exchange with them. Yet, when you enter a physical venue, it involves not only the mind but also the body, such as how it reacts as you walk around the space. When my body is placed in different environments, my reflexes tell me what's most suitable for an art piece. This is how I decide to present my work, and I've come to learn to trust my own instinct. Part of me is constantly splitting into two so that I can objectively observe myself.

Hu Fang: Yes, it's the same with writing novels. A writer can sense his characters will come to stagnate if he allow himself to immerse into the story too deeply.

Pak Sheung Chuen: In the past few years I have had this strange experience. When I installed my work at Vitamin Creative Space, there were certain moments during the process where I suddenly felt like I was experiencing déja vu; it was like I was creating the present moment according to something that I had stored in my memory (or once imagined). Or perhaps it was my mind that brought this interchange of moments.

Hu Fang: Was it something that you were looking for?

Pak Sheung Chuen:No, this was not what I relied on. When I do an installation, I still primarily rely on my body. Sometimes I keep circling inside a venue or repeatedly walk around it a few dozen times until my body grows accustomed to every inch of the space, as if it is part of my body. Once I get to this point, inspiration or imagery will naturally surface, and then I can choose whether to follow or reject it. Sometimes images in my mind will intensify, as my heartbeat would when I talk to a person, or think about something. Even my emotions operate in the same mechanism. I'm thirty years old, but I go through life with parts of me still remaining in adolescent years. Perhaps this is a way to remain youthful.

Hu Fang:In fact, the element of time is important in your work. There's always this unknown force that propels the physical manifestation of your work. On the other hand, you lived at Vitamin Creative Space for two weeks until the opening, and so with this approach you introduced a temporal aspect to your work: the recognition that you are alive in this particular moment and that all the things you had once contemplated on fused together through the process of creation.

Pak Sheung Chuen:During my stay at Vitamin Creative Space, I took the time to sort through my works and my feelings about the site. Being able to take the time is important. I may be considered a very slow person, but then I think there are things that cannot be hastened.

Hu Fang: In this exhibition, you applied various geometric shapes to construct a dialogue that seems to suggest a way to measure and perceive a world that is beyond the reach of the eyes. It also propels people to rediscover the validity of a certain form of abstract thinking.

Pak Sheung Chuen:The use of geometric shapes is intended to approximate truth. According to mathematical axioms, they are immutable. Immutability can be immensely appealing, especially to people who find that their lives are ever-changing. This was what generally crossed my mind when I created this exhibition: I started by drawing two identical circles, after which I associated them with a pair of dark pupils. Through the eyes I saw the sun and its surrounding constellation. As I associated myself with immutable entities, I also attached my soul to this immutability.

Hu Fang: Some of your works have a strong resonance with how people live their daily lives. These works seem to be a medium for you to dispense a certain sense of foreignness, to detect and understand the space you live in.

Pak Sheung Chuen: It just recently occurred to me that my family members are emotional. I didn't realize that when I was young, and now I believe that this emotional swing comes largely from our genes. They gave me an acute sensibility, but I'm also prone to emotional lows. Every time when those lows strike, I need to pull myself back up, which in turn also fuels my creativity. I believe a large part of my creativity comes from this emotional negativity. To counteract this negativity, I need to create so that my body and mind can remain balanced. And gradually, the act of creating becomes a natural mechanism for adjusting the emotional fluctuation.

What I enjoyed most was the tension that I experienced during the two days prior to the opening. As people were looking at you, this feeling of tension gave me a boost of energy. I was like this in university; I always passed my deadline when writing essays, and this pressure also invigorated me.

Faith used to give me the power to ease my own emotions. As religion sets down definite rules for you to follow, it makes your life structured and gives you a sense that your life is full of purpose and meaning. As I said earlier, the only condition is that you need to have absolute faith. If you question your belief, all will be lost and your religion will no longer offer you anything, and you can only rely on yourself to overcome the difficulties. Basically, there's part of me that can no longer be immersed in religion, but I'm used to having some kind of structure to keep my life going; otherwise, I can easily become lost and dejected. Through my work I establish a structure that enables me to mend the loss that I experienced with religion. Art, therefore, becomes a necessity as it slowly assumes the role of religion. It makes me ecstatic if I find a new discovery through my work.

Hu Fang: This reminds me of your installation work, Square Light, in which a mysterious blue light is cast onto a wall while an adult video is being played on a television set. I think the interchange of the divine and human nature is very delicate, or perhaps one should say that they belong to a single entity. As humans, we are subject to self-restraint and self-regulation. While human nature is said to have human, bestial, and the divine attributes, we all function as a composite whole; like the wind, we are constantly changing, constantly in motion. And this process of movement is like ripples across the lake, it proves that we're alive and that our spirit has its pulses, which also explains why we struggle. When I look at your art, it always provokes something in me; even though it may not make me nobler, it opens or reveals something in me at a certain moment. And this brings me comfort.

A lot of times we tend to approach certain issues through a sociological perspective, which may limit our ways of forming a dialogue. That's why I keep thinking that if art is a practice of living, then it is no longer necessary to pre-establish what final destination art is going to take us or what context it is situated in.

Pak Sheung Chuen:I think perhaps we could talk a bit about spirituality. When I was still a Christian, I used to participate in spiritual practice every morning, which involved emptying your mind  so that you could receive fully, and with sincerity, the lessons you learned from Bible-studying. Such readiness allows you to have a dialogue with the Bible that will guide you to attain spiritual regeneration and an acute sensibility towards your surroundings. And now I incorporate this morning practice with my art creation, except that I'm no longer in dialogue with the Bible, but my everyday life and nature. Being spiritual does not refer to the experience of the supernatural, it means how receptive and attentive we are towards our surroundings: an object from our everyday life, an ordinary happening, a person, or a simple remark can all become a conduit to the real world.

Hu Fang:This discussion about spirituality is not an abstract one. I think nowadays we have grown weary of the ecstasy of celebrating the multiplicity of global culture. While we are bombarded by different voices, there are only a few ones that are concerned with understanding the primitive human condition. While this intellectual fatigue is a general phenomenon, it's special that we're able to have a discussion with you about spirituality, to hear you talk about how art can nourish and nurture the spirit. As we are now unable to find a harmonious relationship with the world, it's not so surprising to see how the current foundation of culture entails practices that are consumer-, or even, predatory-based. Thus, our issue is what type of art can truly enrich our lives?

It's inspiring to see All Day(s) All Night(s), and I like it because it gives me a sense that it is "gently moistening all living things in silence." [a quote from Du Fu (Tang Dynasty) 春夜喜雨 ] Your work does not involve a large consumption of materials or attempt to seize our attention with an imposing visual display. In many instances, it gently offers us insights and reflections into day-to-day experience and the individual's relationship with the world, and this is precisely what we're looking for.

(Note: The first and second part of this conversation were completed in December 2007 during Pak Sheung Chuen's one-year residency program in New York; the third part was completed in Guangzhou in January 2008, after the opening of Pak's exhibition All Day(s) All Night(s) at Vitamin Creative Space.)

Published by Yishu- Journal of Contemporary Chinese Art VOLUME 8, NUMBER 3, MAY/JUNE 2009,p. 67